Over the last year or so, I’ve listened to every episode of the Unbelievable? podcast. That’s over 600 episodes and 800 hours of content! I’ll have to ask the host, Justin Brierley, but I believe I’ve hit superfan status. Next level would be to attend a conference, assuming those are still a thing in the future.
As a superfan, I’m required to mention that conversations matter. Most conversations on Unbelievable? are between a Christian and a non-Christian. If you don’t like to hear the other side of a topic, then this show is not for you. Please slink back to your echo chamber. But, for earnest seekers of truth who want to weigh the merits of both sides of an argument, you’ve come to the right place.
As I re-listened to all the episodes that were deemed worthy of saving to my phone, I realized that my favorites were often the episodes in which the non-Christian presented a strong case or made interesting points for which I didn’t know how to respond. This forced me to think more deeply about my own Christian convictions.
Here’s my Top 10:
Jan 16, 2010: “Expelled” The Movie – Stephen C. Meyer vs. Peter Atkins. This was my first introduction to a debate involving Peter Atkins—a living legend in chemistry. When you’ve heard one theological debate by Atkins, you’ve heard them all . . . but you at least need to hear one! His view that “there isn’t a shred of evidence” behind Christianity (or any other religion for that matter) and that any reasoning which might evoke a transcendent being like God as “intellectually lazy” are some his more famous attempts to stonewall a theological conversation. This episode has as much to do with the presuppositions of materialism as it is about the theory of Intelligence Design. Regardless, Meyer and Atkins exchange a good volley of ideas. Since Justin’s goal is to have conversations that matter, I found it interesting that the movie Expelled, and this conversation in particular, highlight the scientific establishment’s interest in shutting down the dialogue even when they admit—as Atkins does in this episode—that Intelligent Design is asking some great questions.
Oct 12, 2018: Is Jesus the Jewish Messiah? Michael Brown vs. Jonathan Romain. This is a lively interchange between a Messianic Jew and a progressive rabbi. They cover a range of fascinating topics: the markers of the Messiah, the Jewish understanding of Jesus, sin, religious pluralism (many paths to God) vs. particularism (one path to God), absolute truth vs. personal preferences, and works-based vs. grace-based salvation. Rabbi Romain makes a good point that the problems in the world and in the Christian church don’t reflect the Jewish understanding that the Messiah has already come. If the Messiah had come in the form of Jesus, he reasons, then things wouldn’t be such a mess today. Mr. Brown counters that Jesus commenced the Kingdom of God as evidenced by the radically-changed lives of so many converts to Christianity.
Mar 22, 2019: Is Identity Politics the new religion? James Lindsay, Esther O Reilly and Neil Shenvi. As Justin admits, this wasn’t a typical debate format but more of a one-sided discussion. However, I found the interchange extremely helpful to thread together multiple movements within modern society. So, if you’ve been confused (or fascinated) by buzzwords such as: identity politics, cancel culture, intellectual dark web, critical theory, and woke politics, then perhaps you too will find this episode a must-listen. Making it all the more fascinating is the brief recap of Mr. Lindsay’s ‘grievance studies’ project—a hoax that he says helped reveal the fundamentalism that has taken over (the social-Marxist) academia and the extreme political left. An interesting observation in this conversation is that this is the latest recycling of the postmodern movement of personal preferences (or experiences) over objective truths. One of the unfortunate outcomes of this movement is the method of out-shouting the opposition so as to end a conversation before it starts. The heart-breaking human element in all of this is our insatiable need to be righteous. To be on the right side of history and judgment. For the Christian, those needs have been solved by Jesus himself.
Jan 12, 2018: The Tim Farron affair: Are evangelicals no longer welcome in politics? David Robertson & Jonathan Bartley. This episode addresses the hot button issue of the last decade: sexuality and gender. Is there tolerance for certain views that have become out of favor in popular culture? Or does the tolerance movement have an aspect of intolerance? The discussion touches on a contemporary question: can you be Christian and politically liberal? Or do certain issues (in this case, sexuality and gender) force you out of the liberal camp? In Tim Farron’s case, this one issue seemed to dominate all others, causing him to step down from political leadership. This is an unhealthy and dangerous outcome in my view. Since when did we have to align with every policy or belief of a political party in order to serve (or vote) for that party? Separately, has there ever been a political candidate that perfectly reflected your views? If you liked this episode, you might also like two shows featuring David Robertson and Terry Sanderson on secular tolerance and religious education.
July 10, 2015: Can Christianity be true if Christians can’t agree on doctrine? Andrew Whyte vs. Nabeel Qureshi. An excellent discussion in which Whyte uses the words of various Christian leaders to show the amazing diversity of opinions within Christianity. It’s a compelling argument to show internal dysfunction. Nabeel’s approach is to explain the difference between critical and non-critical issues and to point out that there’s almost no topic in which humans are in full agreement. One of Nabeel‘s best points is that God seems to delight in reaching us through diverse ways. At the heart of this discussion is how everyone lives in the tension of uncertainty. We all lack absolute clarity on so many matters in life. This episode reminds me of the amazing gift that Nabeel had for explaining difficult topics and his death remains a great loss to us in the apologetics world.
Feb 22, 2014: Why I am not an atheist – David Robertson vs. Matt Dillahunty. This was the first of two debates between these two. I’m picking the first one because it was the feistier of the two interchanges. Both guests are extremely quick on their feet and can give as good as they get. In an hour, they cover a wide range of topics.
Nov 13, 2015: Has science explained away God? David Glass, Peter Atkins & James Croft. Although this topic has been covered many times on Unbelievable?, I felt the need to include at least one on my Top 10 list since it was this topic that was so critical in my own conversion story. The inclusion of Peter Atkins and his viewpoints as a hardline atheist and materialist is helpful to see the extreme side of the spectrum. It’s a view that I found very enticing before I started investigating the truth claims of Christianity. I might also recommend the debate between Atkins and Craig from 2012. The highlight of that debate occurs in the Q&A in which Atkins dismisses philosophy as a waste of time and Craig counters that Atkins is actually using philosophy (specifically metaphysics) to make his claims about the physical world.
Mar 31, 2017: Can atheists believe in human rights? Peter Tatchell vs. Andy Bannister. Is morality from God or is it a human construct? This is a well-matched conversation between two well-spoken individuals who have given the concept of dignity and human rights much consideration. Both individuals bring excellent points to consider.
Mar 8, 2019: Don’t be meme! Randal Rauser and David Smalley. This is a good back-and-forth between two excellent guests who debate whether popular internet memes are addressing real issues versus caricatures. Do they set up strawman arguments or steelman arguments? It’s a cordial discussion that could’ve easily gotten heated.
Jun 10, 2016: Grill Greg Koukl – Questions on prayer, atonement & God’s hiddenness. Adding my favorite episode from the popular “Grill a Christian” series. Koukl is a veteran apologist who is no stranger to call-in radio and bringing clarity to tough topics. In this episode, he brings his insights into three very tricky topics which are often difficult to articulate in a conversation.
Honorable Mention. Occasionally, Unbelievable? will broadcast a formal debate in front of a live audience. Here are two that liked.
Oct 26, 2011: William Lane Craig vs. Peter Millican – Does God Exist? A great interchange in which Craig offers his famous 5-point argument for God. And if you’ve ever heard Craig talk about how he prepares for a debate, you’ll recognize how incredibly prepared he is for each point raised by his opponent. Though Millican is not a frequent debater, he also came prepared and was a worthy adversary.
Mar 22, 2014: William Lane Craig & Sean Carroll debate God & Cosmology. If you like the more technical arguments in modern cosmology, then this debate is for you. There are many areas which will be hard to follow for the average listener, but the back-and-forth between these two geniuses is really impressive and highlights the incredible planning that goes in to such a debate.